Stop the war...

the Colorado daily

page 16 — May 7, 1971 -

stop the war...

(continued from page 15)
took place as far as the slave trade

was concerned. | must learn to.

explain to people that, true
enough, black people sold blacks
into slavery, but what was the
contributing factor behind that?

1 am dealing with me, histori-
cally, what | have been subjected
to, what | am and what | have
been subjected to as an Afro-

American. | have defined myself:

as an Afro-American, not black.
This isn’t racism, because in order
for me to be a functioning entity
within this society, | must define
myself and | must know where |
came from and where | want to
go. Once | know that, traveling
the road by myself, then if there
is integration then | can integrate.

| feel that as time progresses
black people will become aware of
the fact that they’re many views
and many ways to perceive
themselves to define themselves.
Charles: Right now, I’m even
wondering why | don’t talk more.
| wonder if this is the result or the
residue of my experiences in the
military because | think you are
conditioned not to feel not to talk
to the point where you, in fact,
do just what they want. For me, |
think I’ve always had a latent
objection, but since | got out it’s
been more manifest. It’s a shame
it wasn’t manifested when | was
in. I’m seeing it happen today. |
look at myself and say | should
have acted on my feeling when |
was in.

My experiences generally have
been unique. Like | was a special]
case in many respects. | don’t
want to go into that, butany rate, |
was working in a mental health
setting and one of the absurdities

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that | witnessed was a lot of
patients described as ‘’acting out.’
| used to be amused to myself
because | thought they were
acting upon the system. | thought
it was so absurd that they would
be diagnosed as “acting out.”
They. weren't really considering
the military context, but that was
the military.

Daily: Do you think that antiwar
feeling among veterans stems from
radical politics?

Dennis: No, | don’t think it’s a
radical political source. | don’t
think anyone’s politicized when
they go into the service. | was
anything but. politicized when |
went into the service. | was never
one of those people who “acted
out.” It’s kind of like when you
get in, they take this cord and
plug you into the outlet that says
“Android.”” That’s where you stay
until you get out and they unplug
the cord and say ‘Now, you can
think.”’

For me, the first thing about the
war at Mesa College was that |
was really pissed because here are
all these people running around
screaming and raving about get-
ting out of Vietnam now when |
had already been in for two
fucking years. Now I’m out and
everybody’s running around. | was
a little irritated that they weren't
doing that in ’65 so | wouldn’t
have had to have gone.

You can’t be politicized. You
lose your identity. You...
Malcolm, Marlin: Right.

Dennis: You lose your identity
and you’re one great big sponge.
Daily: What about once you're
out?

Dennis: \f you're irritated...
Malcolm: Then again, it can be

such a traumatic trip, you just
need to withdraw altogether.
Where you no longer have posses-
sion of your mental faculties.
Your morale has just been abated.
You're nothing more than an
animal, a vegetable. You’re not
even capable of thinking, so how
can an individual be, as you put it,
politicized, if his morale has been
abated. There’s no possible way.
Dennis: You have to look into
the fear that | know | had, and
that | think most veterans have
when we get out of the military.
If you enlist, you’re in for four
years. That’s entire college class
from freshmen until you graduate.
Then we come out of the military.
Well, man, the high schools are
now on the third level the colleges
used to be on when we got out of
high school. So here we’re saying,
Well Jeez, should | go back and
have to compete with that kind of
stuff? Can | compete with the kid
who’s going to college when I’ve
been out here subjected to all this
crap?

It takes no brainpower to carry
an M-16. We get out and wonder
whether we should go to college
ora “tech” school.

They even have what they call
Operation Transition in the mili-
tary. It takes you and says, ‘Now
you can’t handle the college scene
sO we’re going to send you to a
vocational tech school. | hiber-
nated the first year | was out of
the military going to school

because | didn’t think | could
handle it.
Malcolm: How can you be politi-
cized, using the example that
Dennis cited, if you don’t know
what the government is actually
doing? They have labeled you,
caricaturized you, humiliated you;
they’re telling you that you can’t
do this and you can’t do that. As
a black, | was subjected to it when
1. took “these. funky-ass exams.
That is the only way. |! can relate
to them, because they told me,
“Now, by your: exams, Malcolm,
you can’t make it in the Univer-
sity.” Then. | start functioning in
the University, and | see how lost
everybody is, and | become aware
of the fact that | have had a
political education because | have
had. an opportunity to see how
decadent. this. society really is.
And it’s one massive contradiction
even at this level where you’re
dealing with theoreticians. They
theorize and they dictate to
others and they tell other people
how to live.

| covered the system from the
ghetto to the intellectual atmo-
sphere, and | see one massive
contradiction. | feel that now |
have been politically educated. It
wasn’t the military which did
anything for me. It was the lies
that accumulated. My political
education came when I was
discharged from the military ser-
vices and | had to come to this
synthetic society.

‘Well, Jeez,
should I have to

go back

and compete...’

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Dennis: \ think it makes a lot of
veterans who become politicized
even more vehement against this
society because of what we have
done to a country while they. say
that the tradition of the United

States is freedom of this and
freedom of that and _ self-deter-
mination.

We're. totally . changing a

country’s. geography. It reminds
me of that old cliche, ‘Don’t do
as | do, do as | say.” That’s that
massive contradiction that Mal-
colm is talking about.

If you were there, saw the

violence in a traffic wreck, for
example, then it becomes more
personal to you.
Malcolm: All of a sudden it’s
traumatic experience. You come
within the context of the prob-
lem. The system is set up to
contain you. There is no such
thing as a “self-made man.”

It’s one social

group. If you adopt their values,
carry yourself in a certain way
and speak in a certain way, then
you are accepted. And even then,
if you are black, you alienate
yourself. You are still in slavery.
You have saved your ass but you
haven’t saved your mind because
you really don’t know’ what
you’re being subjected to.
Dennis: What really impresses me
is the poor whites running around
here. They can say, “I’ve got it
together.”’ But, if they. think
about their minds, they lose. It
doesn’t make any difference what
your skin color is, you're. still
going to prostitute yourself to big
business. | believe a certain way,
but if this is against the grain of
the government or business, then
I’m going to have these prejudices
handed down on me and /’m
going to have to change. | don’t
think that’s right. That’s one plus
for the military because they
certainly showed that to me.

It’s too bad that the whites
around here don’t become aware

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of the fact that just being white
doesn’t mean they will make it on
that. Their minds have to be
programmed a certain way. If
they are mental rogues, they’re
going to join the groups of the
persecuted too.

Daily: Let’s change gears for a
while. There has been an emphasis
recently on what is called war

crimes as in the Winter Soldier

Investigation this year. Did any of
you see what might be called war
crimes while you were in Viet-
nam?

Dennis: You're asking people to
put themselves on the line. WSI is
a groupof 150 veterans saying
something about war crimes. For
Malcolm to say, “Yeah, | saw a
war crime,’’ there’s nothing to
stop someone from coming to
take him, or any of us, away. We
don’t have the security of 150
people.

| can say that My Lais happen
everyday. They're nothing new.
When you take 175 mm artillery
units that find a problem with a
certain hamlet, it only takes five
rounds and the hamlet’s gone. Is
that a war crime? It makes no
difference that there are women
and kids there. You see it all the
time.

Malcolm: \'ve seen a lot of
“inhumane acts,” let’s put it like
that. | would like to question the
validity of a war crime. Is
anything a crime in war?

Dennis: \s war a crime?

Malcolm: Yes. \s war a crime?
Can we say that war is a crime?
Who are the politicians in Wash-
ington to say, “This is a crime?”
When we know we begin to
understand the system — that the
Pentagon and the military institu-
tions are kept going by these
‘““crimes.”” War is a big business. In
order for our society to function
there must be a war. Here again
you're dealing with this contra-
diction.

Capitalists have got to under-
stand that there is a different way
of life because no one is willing to
be subjected to this European
philosophy any more. Vietnam
exemplifies this. Twenty years
ago, think what would have
happened if a little country like
Vietnam had told the United
States ‘‘No!’’ Say, we would have
just moved our Navy off the coast
and just blown them off the
fucking map.

But now we’re in a situation

DOUG CLARK

4

where the truth is coming to light,
and we're beginning to learn a lot
of things about ourselves. There
are segments in this society who
say they will not accept a
surrender, that ‘We must win.’’
They are advocates of the Euro-
pean philosophy of supremacy.
When it breaks in Vietnam,
that’s where colonialism stops.
You won’‘t have countries as in
Latin America under the thumb
of the United States where the
people are just bleeding to death.
Dennis: \f Vietnam can get away
with it, then you know...
Malcolm: \t'\\ be the world.
Dennis: \t's a shift of power from
the super-powers to the little
people.
Malcolm: And everyone is aware
of it because they all have a Bomb
now. | see people living in a dream
world. Nixon comes on and |
know millions of people believe
what he’s saying. “We're breaking
the ice with Red China, but
before we go any further we must
see how deep the water is.”” The
only reason they’re negotiating
with Red China is because they
have the Bomb. This makes them
a potential threat. But if we have
any kind of relationship with Red
China, then Red China will be
exploited. There’s no doubt about
it, it’s all part of the capitalistic
system. It’s about time we see
what's going on, that everybody is
being exploited, time that the
middle-class American sees it is no
different, or no better off than
the ghetto-black. There is no
difference. It’s a manner of
economics.
Dennis: They're using us all in
places like Southeast Asia.
Malcolm: We become the poli-
tical dupes. All that we're doing is
making the power elite richer.
Dennis: But, if something hap-
pens like My Lai, then you see the
people who get chopped off. It’s

not Westmoreland. It’s some poor °

little suck-ass lieutenant. Lieu-
tenants did not make that kind of
decision when | was in the service.
You get it from maiors or colonels
down. They say, ‘All right, we're
going out on a search and destroy
mission’’and that’s exactly what
you do. In the WSI film where
people were cutting off heads;
they had to stop that because the
press was there. Not because the
bird colonel in the helicopter was
there, but because the press was
there. It wasn’t because the

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military machine was there, but
because someone. outside the
military machine was there.
Malcolm: Exactly.
Dennis: People say we should get
back our prisoners of war. I'm not
really too sympathetic about
those people — not the ones in the
camps, but those who are trying
to get them back. | would like to
see a North Vietnamese pilot drop
bombs on Boulder and | mean
bombs that are designed for
anti-personnel use. CBUs, not the
big bombs that destroy factories;
things that are aimed at civilians.
And then, say we capture the
pilot in Denver, then let these
housemothers get hold of them.
Would they put them in a nice
hospital or prisoner camp? They’d
probably put him out somewhere
and castrate him. When you drop
tons and tons of anti-personnel
bombs, you are making tons and
tons of enemies.

| can’t understand why those
pilots don’t question. It’s like the
old Marine tradition. ‘Take the
hill.” Just follow. That’s going out
the window, why should | take
the hill?
Daily: Do you think this stems
primarily because of the Calley
verdict?

Dennis: No! We're more educated |

now. A lot of enlisted personnel
are really uptight about the young

draftee or the young enlisted man |
because he had it more together |

than the people handing down the
dictums. This is a threat to his
job. In the military you have a job
just like on the outside. And

people try to push you down so #
that their job is secure — just like }

on the outside.
Malcolm: That makes something

else come to mind. Say | go _*

through this education trip, and
after | get my degree, where do |
go then? I'll be about 31. The first
thing they’re going to tell me is
that I’m too old, and | know that
that is bullshit. It isn’t that I’m
too old, it’s the fact that they’ve
programmed this little high schoo!
chump over here, very naive,
doesn’t know what's going on, ‘pat
him on the head, stroke him, put
him in a nice little house in
suburbia, let him have a car and
he’s going to accept it...

Dennis: Give him a dog.

Malcolm: \'m going to ask for the
dough because | want the money
and they’re going to tell me,
“Well, ah, you’re, ah, too old. I’m
sorry.”

Then they'll say, “‘Now, Mr.
Thompson, | want you to under-
stand one thing, it isn’t because
you’re black, it’s because you
don’t have the qualifications.”

1 went through this trip when |
was a vet.I’d go to one place and
they’d say 1! didn’t have the
qualifications and I’d say, ‘’Teach
me.” And, they’d say, “Well,
we're having difficulty with funds,
and we don’t seem to have enough
money. But as soon as we get
everything together, we'll get in
contact with you, okay?” “Say,
man, I’m starving.”” So | go to one
of these menial positions and |
walk in and have confidence and
as soon as | open my mouth, they
ask, ‘Well, have you been to
college?” And | say, “No.’’ Then
they say, “! don’t think, ah, er,
ah, you would like, er, ah, you
won't like the pay.” “Say, man,
I’m starving. I’m ready to do
anything.”

Then college. ‘Well, we’re sorry
Mr. Thompson, your SAT scores

weren't .. high enough. We
don’t really t. « you can make it
in college.”

So_ what ‘uck can | do?
Where do I qw 'e been refused

on all fronts. 1. L go for this
workman’s cot, nsation and
they’re telling me have to give
my whole case hi. ory. | don’t
have to give my cu. > history. |
spent four years in the service, did
19 months in Vietna’

If | was a good ‘gro”” and
learned to write well, . .eak well
and if I’m not politically edu-
cated, I’m going to get th? job and
they can use me. But an ii dividual
such as myself, | don’t even look
forward to a job with a deg-ee.
Dennis: Nixon’|I| put you in
HEW.

Malcolm: | really understan.t my
brother Johnson here because he’s
going through his political ediica-
tion now, learning all the liitle
tricks the establishment fas
dropped on us. It’s very frustrat-
ing when you know what's going
on and see the games that people
are playing. Whites have to learn
this, too, because they are the
oppressors.

(continued on page 18)



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